Messages posted by DaR - Forum (2024)

12►Pg#

There's a couple of tournament scenes.

Every quarter there's a new set (summers are a new core set, the other 3 quarters comprise a "block" which will share story and theme between them). In the fall, there's a rotation, and the previous core set and second most recent block of 3 sets rotate out of the "Standard" scene. Keeping up with Standard can be expensive, if the current top decks require chase rares and mythics. Sometimes they don't, but often they do. You can "okay" to "reasonably" well with offbeat decks that cost in the ten to fifty dollar range. I've stopped playing Standard, not so much because of the cost, but because I haven't the time to keep up with an ever shifting scene.

There are also two "Eternal" tournament scenes. Legacy is "almost every card ever printed" with a couple handful of banned and restricted cards. Top end Legacy decks are, as mentioned, CRAZY expensive to buy (some upwards of $1000, though most are in the $300-500 range). But once bought, you generally do not need to change them again, ever. I don't even think about playing Legacy.

Modern is a "new" tournament format that's only a year or so old. It's list is "everything that's been printed with the new border" (ie, since 8th edition Core set and Mirrodin Block). Competitive Modern decks can be a pretty expensive, mostly because the good land cards tend to be disproportionately expensive. You're unlikely to hit the $1000 mark, but $500 isn't out of the question for the most uber-competitive deck worth of cards. You can compete fairly well with decks in the $50-100 range, as unlike standard you have access to multiple years worth of "good, but not great, until you combine them together" cards. Most of my competitive decks check in between $100 and $200, with one very competitive deck that could be built for under $20.

Finally, there's "organized, but usually not tournament" formats. Commander has been mentioned as one. Frankly, I'd rather play Commander than anything else. For one, it's almost always a multiplayer game, which leads to a lot more social interaction and politicking, which makes for a more fun game. For another, it's a mostly unrestricted format in terms of what cards you can use, but it's restricted in that you can only have 1 of any given card (except basic lands) in a deck. That means that you've only got to hunt down one copy of that ultra-expensive card, not 4 copies.

Commander decks range a lot in price. You can buy into commander with the pre-built decks for as little as $30. Hell, there's legitimate decks that use 1 legendary creature and 99 lands. In practice, most of my decks would cost about $200-300 to build from scratch, tending towards the lower side of that. You can go over the top; I've seen decks that were worth almost $2000. I've also seen that deck lose regularly to decks worth less than $100.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff146/belong999/Epic/000Gargantsizes.jpg

That should give you an idea.

Most people mount great gargants on the epic flat titan bases. Which are 60mm (as opposed to dreadnought bases, which most people call 60mm, but are actually closer to 65mm).

ergotoxin wrote:So basically you just said you copied my data without asking? Thats not really polite dude

Apologies for any offense. I hadn't realized there was any significant original data in those. But this is also not exactly a "copy" of your data.

Most of your data appears to have come originally from the tables at the back of 'Waaargh! Orks' from Rogue Trader (which I also originally started from). I've also gone through some old White Dwarfs, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed Ork codexes and the Lexicanum site and added many of the name pair portions from those as well. There's also some data from a few other random name tables and generators I've found on the web (including data from a number of WHOL sites like WHAlliance, some WHjjjFB source sites, a few Tolkien sites, etc). Some have been reorganized and few of the ones I thought especially silly were removed or moved between various lists.

Beyond that, I've added some logic for creating the titles and nicknames, again culled from a number of sources and then with additions of my own (and some suggestions from friends).

Ultimately, I'd like there to be plenty of awesome Ork name generators. So feel free to use the improvements I've made, or to give me suggestions. Or, if you like, you can use my code yourself. I've been using this project as an excuse to brush up on my HTML and JS skills, so I've been trying to write the most usable code I can.

Building on ergotoxins' original idea and applying some fancification and adding some new data culled from a variety of sources (including ergotoxin's original generator), I've now got the following:

http://www.thekeep.org/orkgen.html

It can spit out large numbers of names at a time, to let you find the ones you like best. And if you click the 'Gimme' link, it'll regenerate a new batch, without having to reload the page.

LBursley wrote:

vent wrote:

LBursley wrote:

Thanks but there are no flames on the sword lol. I painted hazard stripes on the sword and then added blood/gore to it.

But no, there's no video tutorial showing it.

lol color me a fool then, but all I see when I look at it is a perfect flame pattern that looks natural. Either way, fantastic stuff as always ^_^

Ok I see it now. If you think of the sword being Black in base color then you can see the flame. I see what you see. But the flame effect was not my intention lol.

Thats called a happy accident.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vent wrote:

LBursley wrote:

vent wrote:The flame on that chainsword is spectacular. If I hunted through your tutorials would I find one that shows that?

Thanks but there are no flames on the sword lol. I painted hazard stripes on the sword and then added blood/gore to it.

But no, there's no video tutorial showing it.

lol color me a fool then, but all I see when I look at it is a perfect flame pattern that looks natural. Either way, fantastic stuff as always ^_^

YOU ARE NOT A FOOL SIR!

I talked with my friends about 'seeing the flame' and we decided it was an accidental NEW technique. So I went out to practice it. Thanks for seeing what I didn't mean to do

Here's a test. The front of the left leg and the shoulders are the only parts I like.

Whoa. That is almost exactly the effect I've been trying to achieve.

I second the call for a video tutorial, or at least a description of how you did this.

My guess is that it's mostly stippling of the flame colors over black basecoat, with some washes/glazes to tie it together.

CA style superglues like Zap and friends cure by absorbing moisture (from the air, usually, but also your skin, which is why they bond fingers so quickly).

Over time, even if they're capped, they'll slowly absorb moisture, and every time you open a bottle to use some, a little more air with moisture will get into the bottle. So eventually some significant percentage of the glue in a bottle will be already cured before you put it on your models.

So yes, the glue does 'go bad' over time. If you have a decent bottle with a good cap seal on it, it might not before you use up the glue. If you leave it out uncapped for extended periods, or have a cap that doesn't seal, or a bottle made out of a more porous plastic, then the glue will be less strong in a much shorter period.

I used to buy the large 2 oz bottles, but I found that the vast majority of the time the tip would get crudded up, ruining the airtight seal, and the glue would thus go bad long before I used up the whole bottle. Now I buy the smallest bottles (1/4oz, I think they are) and I never really notice the glue becoming too cured to use before I use up the bottle.

Sidstyler wrote::\ Everyone's hating on incubi, that's really depressing. The incubi were my favorite of the new models and if they're not worth using I'm going to be pissed.

I think people had some unrealistic expectations.

Incubi are just fine. 22 points for a 3+ save with a S4 power weapon and 2 base attacks is very solid. Everyone is complaining about the lack of grenades as if that were totally crippling. I don't know about everyone else, but on the tables I typically play on there's only 1/4 to 1/3rd terrain. That leaves the vast majority of the table open. Things which disembark transports (or are blown out of them) are usually in the open. Things which consolidated back from combat are often in the open. If you can't work around a little area terrain, you're probably not going to be happy with Dark Eldar for plenty of other reasons.

That said, there's at least a couple of interesting ways to improve them.

Power Through Pain tokens make them one of the tougher units DE can field. 3+ with FNP, even on T3, is pretty respectable. You can easily get a PtP token right from the start by having a Haemonculi join them, then having him split off at some point. Or from the shooting attacks of a Cronos.

In the previous codex, they were basically Archon retinue only. If you continue to use them that way, your archon can take Phantasm Grenade Launchers and the problem's solved.

Personally, I'm liking the idea of 5 of them in a Venom. They're a "finisher" unit. Let Warriors, Reavers, and other shooting tear up the unit unit it's down to a a few models. Then, instead of devoting an entire unit's worth of shooting to killing 2 or 3 models, have the Incubi pounce them in combat, picking up the token.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hey folks!

how big are bases? I don't know their mm size, just references.

1" Troop base
2" Bigger base
Dreadnought Base

Are there any other sizes? And what are the respective actual MM sizes of those? 25mm, 40mm, 60mm? Something else? Thanks.

Regular troop bases are 25mm. Plus or minus a few tenths, depending on if they're slotted or not or if they're from the new or old molds.

Terminator bases are 40mm (just a hair over an inch and a half) in theory, and about 39.5 in fact.

Dreadnought bases are supposedly 60mm, but are actually about 64mm.

Small flying bases are about 32mm across.

Large Flying bases are almost exactly 60mm across.

The flat "Epic Titan" bases are also just about 60mm across.

Bike bases are 25mm across, and 72mm long.

The oval Monster/Flyer bases are 120mm long and 94mm across.

Non GW:

Privateer and several other companies use the rounded edge bases. They come in 30mm (small), 40mm (medium), and 50mm (large). The bases are inset on top (giving them a small lip).

There's some UK companies that make 20mm (slotted), 30mm, and 50mm round bases with the same flat sides as GW bases. The 50mm ones are somewhat thinner (about 2.5mm instead of 3mm), but the 30mm ones are the same depth, and they're all smoother on top than GW's somewhat sand-like texture. I've not had reason to use the 20mm ones, so I don't own any to measure.

KMBs are never worth it. 5 points for AP2 just doesn't help enough. Most units you'll face don't have 2+ saves, and the few that do usually have a 3++ or 5++ invulnerable save, which vastly blunts the effectiveness of the AP2 anyhow. If KMBs had the melta rule, it'd be a different story.

Personally, I like nothing but Grotzookas. S6 is good enough to help crack open light transports like Rhinos, Trukks, Raiders, and the side armor on Chimeras. Blast templates are more likely to hit *something* and give you decent flexibility in where you're shooting to get maximum effect, especially when you have 2 attempts to get it right.

As for Orks not needing anti-infantry? Every model you kill with a Grotzooka before your boyz charge in is one more model's worth of attacks that aren't going before your boyz. That's more attacks for you, potentially a bigger win in combat, and fewer dead boyz on your side towards losing fearless and/or combat effectiveness.

That said, I can see the usefulness of Rokkit Kanz if you don't already pack enough anti-transport shooting elsewhere. If you aren't running lootas or rokkit-buggies, then Kanz are a fairly sturdy and cheap way to get semi-reliable S8 rokkit shots.

That said, I wouldn't mix Rokkits and 'zookas in the same unit. The difference in range and optimal targets means that you're often going to get less than the best usage out of one weapon or the other. 2 units with Zookas and 1 with Rokkits would be a better mix. That way the Rokkits can crack open a transport and then the 'zookas can drop templates on the troops that fell out.

Most forums (Dakka included) do not allow people to post point costs for individual gear items. The thought is that it will prevent GW legal from getting pissy and trying to shut down the forums. In practice, GW doesn't have a leg to stand on, and most forum owners (or their ISP) don't want and can't afford to fight off the lawsuit, so both sides pretend and it all works out.

As for the Kan Wall, I'm a big fan of 9 of them with Grotzookas, though I don't run what most people would call the Kan Wall. For me, they're the second wave, rather than the screening force.

I like using buggies or Deffkoptas and throwaway units of MegaNobz in transports to crack my opponent's transports open. Or occasionally lootas or Ambushing Kommandos. Once troops are out (and usually nicely clustered around their ex-transport), dropping upto 18 S6 blast templates on units tends to make them vaporize. Even terminators and other 2+ save units don't like making 10-15 saves per unit of Kanz shooting at them.

I try to keep them out of combat, usually, but sometimes they can be the tipping point. S10 power-weapons on AV11 walkers will (slowly and eventually) chew through units like IG blobs and Gaunt swarms. They can also join in with a late game assault from one of my boyz or Nob units, to provide a few extra armor-ignoring attacks. As a tip, though, they fare extremely poorly against other walkers and most MCs.

Finally, the DCCW also make for decent back-up tank crackers, if for whatever reason the rest of my army can't do the job. Since you don't care about the lousy WS when attacking vehicles, you get more vehicle-killing attacks out of Kanz than you would out of Dreads or anything else except MegaNobz, per point.

And the upside is that a full 9 Kanz is still only 415 points, or about the same cost as a single kitted out Nob squad. A Grotzooka armed Kan is 45 points. A MegaNob is 40 points, and a Nob with a Klaw is at least 45 (before any other options like 'eavy armor, cybork, etc). Unlike either of the others, they're completely immune to S4 weapons (though somewhat worse against heavy weapons if there's no KFF around). They're faster than MegaNobz on foot, and will have more PK-equivalent attacks than the Nobz for the points. And unlike either, they've got a S6 blast weapon with BS3 and 2 shots.

The only downsides to Kanz are WS2 (which makes them even more useless against most MCs and many other walkers than MegaNobz or Nobz would be), and the fact that they compete with Battlewagons for slots. And unlike Nobz and MegaNobz, you can't put 'em in a transport, so they will take an extra turn or two to get to the opponent if you're being aggressive with them.

The only other way I'd ever run Kanz would be with Rokkits, to take advantage of their BS3. Skorchas, IMO, go on Dreads since a dual Skorcha Dread is only 5 points more than two Skorcha-armed Kanz and benefits from WS4 and AV12 and it wastes the BS3 on the Kanz. KMBs are never worth the points, and Orks can get Big Shootas too many other places to waste them on BS3 kanz. Rokkits are a little more expensive, but if you need units which can help crack open transports and kill medium armor, they're a pretty decent choice (though buggies with TL-Rokkits are more point efficient and more mobile, if slightly more fragile).

1 Painboy (Cybork Body)
1 Nobz (Cybork Body; Waaagh! Banner; Power Klaw)
1 Nobz (Cybork Body; Power Klaw)
1 Nobz (Bosspole; Cybork Body; Big Choppa)
1 Nobz (Cybork Body; Big Choppa; Shoota/Rokkit Kombi-weapon)
1 Nobz (Cybork Body; Big Choppa; Shoota/Skorcha Kombi-weapon)
1 Nobz (Cybork Body; Big Choppa; Twin Linked Shoota)
1 Nobz (Cybork Body; Big Choppa)
1 Nobz (Bosspole; Cybork Body)
1 Nobz (Cybork Body)

That's my preferred configuration. 2 Klaws is usually enough, especially with 5 Big Choppas around.

I did the vast majority of my orks with nothing but foundations, some silver, and washes.

Pants and large leather areas like the back holsters for shootas, were done with Khemri Brown, with Devlan Mud Wash, adn then rehighlighted with the Khemri.

Leather straps, wrist bands, etc, were done with Calthan Brown, also with Devlan wash and re-edged with the Calthan Brown.

Tunics and boots were done as black, by using Adeptus Battlegrey with several coats of Badab Black wash.

Weapons, buckles, rivets, etc, were done with Silver (actually Vallejo Model Air Silver, as it brushes on way nicer than any non-airbrush metallics I've ever used, but Mithril Silver should work in a pinch), splattered randomly with a little Mechanus Solar Orange for rust and then washed with Devlan Mud and re-drybrushed with Silver.

Ork skin is done easily with a coat of Knarloc Green, a Devlan Mud wash, and then a rehighlight of Knarloc. For the best results, add a tiny touch of Iyanden Darksun to some Knarloc for a second highlight. For showcase type pieces, mix a touch of Tallarn flesh with the Knarloc green and use that on lips, fingers, and places where flesh meets cybork metal.

Teeth, claws, skulls and bandage/straps are Dheneb Stone with a Devlan wash and rehighlighed with Dheneb. For showcase models, a little thinned skull white on the highest points.

Eyes and tongues get Mecharite Red and a wash of Devlan. Eyes also get a tiny dot of Iyanden Darksun or Golden Yellow.

I chose Bad Moons colors for the majority of my army, so armor plates got a coat of Iyanden Darksun, and then washes of either Gryphonne Sepia or Devlan mud. Randomly stipple on Iyanden afterwards, and for showcase models that need a little more attention, re-stipple again and highlight edges with the regular Citadel paint Golden Yellow.

So, all told

Basecoats:
Knarloc Green
Khemri Brown
Calthan Brown
Dheneb Stone
Adeptus Battlegrey
Iyanden Darksun
Mecharite Red
Mithril Silver (or Vallejo Model Air 'Silver' or 'Gun')

Washes:
Devlan Mud (almost everything)
Gryphone Sepia (some yellow areas)
Badab Black (grey areas to make them black)

Detail Colors:
Macharius Solar Orange (rust)
Golden Yellow (Non-foundation, eyes and armor)
Tallarn Flesh (with Knarloc Green for flesh)

The key thing to remember with Orks versus mech IG is that while it may have AV12 or even 14 on the front... it's AV10 on the back. That means that even a single powerklaw on the charge is pretty good odds to wreck any vehicle in the list. And once you've wrecked the vehicles, you can generally mop up any troops left with your orks pretty easily. The vehicles are also where all the blast templates and most of the flamer templates are. Remove those, and your troops live a lot longer. So, really, the key is going to be to crack as many vehicles as quickly as possible.

Against this army, I'd probably start with a couple of Deffkoptas with buzzsaws and TL-Rokkits. 3 units of 2. If you can get first turn, those can probably neuter the most threatening of the opponent's armor (the Manticore, 2 russes, Valkyries, and Hellhound are priority targets, in about that order). If you've got spare points later on (probably not), you could go back and add in additional non-buzzsaw koptas to help blow down any leftovers in subsequent turns.

Lootas and Tankbustas are both good against this list. Without squadrons, Lootas lose a little of their luster (woohoo, I shot a single chimera 45 times, but the first 5 were enough to blow it up...). Normally anyone wouldd forgo tankbustas, but there's almost nothing in this list that they aren't going to want to shoot anyhow, and their tankbusta bombs and tankhammas are excellent versus guard vehicles. Remember that you don't have to shoot the closest vehicle, just that you have to shoot any vehicle if there's at least one in LOS. Bombsquigs are also very good, as they effectively hit on 2+ with S8 and allow you to potentially target two vehicles with each squad in a turn. I'd probably go with a unit of 10 Lootas and 2 units of 10 Tankbustas with 3 bombsquigs and 2 tankhammas each.

For HQs, I'd probably go with at least one Big Mek with KFF, and probably a Warboss of some sort. The Mek gives me that critical turn or two of cover saves against the shooting. The Boss gives me the ability to take a unit of MegaNobz as troops. As such, I'll go with a Mega-Armored boss.

That leaves enough points to fill out some troops. Meganobz, using the ability of the Warboss to take them as troops, are a must. They're the cheapest PKs available in the list, their 2+ save is good against all the vehicle shooting in this guard list, and once you've cracked open a few transports, they can be safely in combat where the plasma and melta vets can't shoot them. A unit of 6 in a Deffrolla battlewagon is probably a solid core for the army. You can put the Boss and Mek with them, to give the wagon a 4+ cover save for the turn or two until you're close enough to dump out. Leave the Mek inside and run around rolla'ing anything I can.

Beyond that, I need some boyz, just for objective taking and for helping to mop up things that have come out of transports. I'd want small units in trukks, because despite the fact that the trukks are going to die, a single turn of 19 inch flat out movement is almost entirely worth it. It also gives me more klaws for vehicle killing. Should have just enough points left to get 3 units or so of boyz in trukks. I always take boarding planks and reinforced rams. The rams will let you hide in cover without immobilizing yourself, and the planks can let the Nob assault vehicles with the his Klaw without taking wounds from the resulting explosions. Of course, assuming the trukks live that long.

So my list is going to look something like this:
Mega Armored Warboss with Bosspole.
Big Mek with 'eavy armor, KFF and PK.
10 Lootas.
2x 10 Tankbustas with 3 Bomb-squigs and 2 Tankhammers.
6 MegaNobz in a Battlewagon with DeffRolla, Boarding Plank, Bigshoota)
3x 2 Deffkoptas with Buzzsaw and TL-Rokkits
3x 11 Boyz plus Nob in Trukk. Rokkit for the Boyz, 'eavy armor, Klaw, and Bosspole for the Nob. Trukk gets Boarding Plank, and Ram.

The tactics are pretty simple. Hope to get first turn. If I do, rush a unit of Koptas at the Manitcore, and the other two units at whatever seems the biggest threat. That's probably the Russes, but may be the valkyries. If I can set up for a multi charge, especially on the second two kopta units, I'll take it. I don't need to kill vehicles, I just need to keep them shaken for a turn or two.

The Lootas set up in cover and start destroying Chimeras and Valkyries. The tankbustas will run behind the vehicle wall, for some cover, and start shooting anything they can. Once they're in range for the bomb squiggs, they'll start using those on nearer targets and their rokkits on farther ones.

The Battlewagon and trukks rush straight up the center, hoping that the 4+ cover save from the mek can keep enough of them alive to get to the IG lines. Turn 2, I should be close enough that the MegaNobz can pile out and I call the waagh. Again, try to multicharge as many vehicles as possible, as 29 PK attacks at S9/10 is enough to wreck several vehicles a turn. The mek stays in the wagon if it lives, and they ram and deffrolla anything they can, and use the PK via the boarding ram to help finish off anything that didn't die. If I can rolla over a troop unit into a vehicle, that's even better.

If you're serious about not liking to finish bases because they look wrong on different terrain, then go whole hog and invest in clear acrylic bases:

http://www.litkoaero.com/page/LAI/CUSTOM_BASES

You can get them absolutely clear. Looks good on any terrain.

Personally, I like the miniature diorama effect. When I'm starting a new army, deciding how to base it is almost as important as the army's color scheme to me.

I've started looking at each model as a tiny diorama. It's not done until the base is. I no longer care if it matches the table I'm playing on.

But, if you really don't like the effect, then there's clearly only one solution. Get clear acrylic discs made that are the right size for the bases. Likto offers that option, I believe. Then it should match any table, and you have a good excuse not to do any basing material.

Orks are, for better or worse, pretty abysmally lacking in ranged anti-tank, particularly against AV13 and especially AV14.

Practically speaking, the only things that can do it are all so random that it's not worth trying to build an army around. Weirdboyz, Shokk Attack Guns, and Zzap Guns are the only things that can generate strength 9 or better ranged attacks, and all of them are either random strength or only randomly get to shoot.

You can hope to glance things to death with S8 Rokkits or KMBs, but Tankbustas are the only way to get S8 Rokkits in even close to the sort bulk you'd need to hope to seriously damage a Land Raider or Monolith, and they have their own issues (they can be good, but they require exceedingly careful finesse in play to avoid their drawbacks).

Practically, DCCWs, PKs (especially on bosses), and Deffrollas are the only semi-reliable ways to get the S9/10 needed to kill Land Raiders.

Of those, only the Deffrolla does not suffer if the other vehicle is moving fast. d6 S10 auto hits if you can contact at all, plus the Ram (S5 to 9 itself) is your best bet for any sort of quick kill.

I personally tend to rely on squads of MegaNobz for anti-LR. 3-4 MANz at S9 on the charge can pretty typically generate a pen or two against an LR. With a Boss in the squad, the odds go up to (to be technically precise) "pretty likely".

That's true. Though, as I said, unless you're commonly going up against armies where there is a greater than normal number of power weapons, MANz are still more efficient killy than Nobz.

DE, Khorne Demons, IG, and MC-heavy Nids are really the only armies I'd consider Nobz over MANz on a regular basis. And in the case of Big Bugs and IG, I'd rather invest in Grotsnik and Cybork for the MANz, as PKs are much better MC and Vehicle killers than even Bigchoppas, let alone slugga+choppa Nobz.

kill dem stunties wrote:10 meganobz = 1 dies every 2 wounds.
10 diversely equipped nobz = one dies every 11 wounds.

kill dem stunties wrote:What? nobz dont lose a single attack until youve done 11 wounds ... Whereas manz drop like flies every 2 wounds 4 if you give them a diff combi lol, but 6 wounds isnt hard to do to t4 without an invul, vs 11 wounds with 5+ invul and fnp.

Correct. Sort of. For the first 11 wounds, you are correct. You lose one MANz every 2,4, or 6 wounds (depending on if you took kombis) and don't lose any Nobz.

However, once you've done 11 wounds, every single wound thereafter causes you to lose a Nob and attacks. MANz continue to only lose attacks at their slower rate.

The analysis works like this (I actually goofed up in my first post, taking wounds from the wrong 'end' of the squad, same effects just changes the offsets slightly):

First 3 wounds = Neither Nobz nor MANZ lose attacks.
Wound 4, 5, 6 = MANZ lose attacks.
Wound 7, 8, 9 = Neither group lose attacks.
Wound 10 = MANz lose attacks.
Wound 11, 12 = Both lose attacks.
Wound 13, 14, 15 = Nobz lose attacks.
Wound 16, 17, 18 = Both lose attacks.
Wound 19 = Nobz lose attacks.
Wound 20 = Both lose attacks.

Of course, all of this assumes that there are no ID attacks involved. Mixing in S8 hits make it near impossible to accurately model which group has more wounds at which point.

One thing to consider is that it's somewhat better to be strong late game than early game. It's harder to generate a morale test on MANz, since they'll have models without wounds on them once the squad is down to only 3 or 4 members. A Nobz squad down to 3 or 4 members will much more likely have a wound on each, and thus be forced to take a Ld test for losing a model. And once a Nobz squad starts making Ld Tests, they'll never recover if they break, while a bad dice roll on an early Ld failure for MANz at least may be recoverable.

As for taking wounds in the first place, here's the breakdown of percentages of wounds saved:

MANz are better at every category except AP2/AP1/rending/power wounds. In particular, unless you have at least cybork, things like Heavy Bolters and Autocannons become very good at killing Nobz, and without 'eavy armor, regular weapons do wounds to Nobz twice as often as they do MANz. Battlecannons and Missiles/Rokkits are also things which kill Nobz at much greater rate than MANz.

If we combine these two sets of facts, here are some tables to show what happens in some typical 'under fire' situations.

We'll use Dash's Nob setup (3 BC, 3 PK, 3 regular and the painboy) with both 'eavy armor and Cybork and look at how many wounds it takes to start losing models and how many attacks the squad outputs at these levels.

Dash's unit costs 460 with both 'eavy armor and cybork. MANz with 3 of each Kombi type costs 430.

First, let's look at all the wounds being 'normal', ie not AP4 or better, so MANz get their 2+ save and Nobz get their 4+ and FNP.

Nobz attacks are listed as Power Klaw/Big Choppa/Regular. MANz Attacks are all PK, obviously. When taking casualties for the Nobz, we'll start losing normal nobz, then BC equiped nobz, then PK nobz, then the painboy just before the final PK nob (in order to maximize FNP)

So against any attacks which are not AP2 or better, MANz will live about 50% longer than Nobz will. They will lose some attacks earlier, but since every MANz has a powerklaw, they'll continue to have more klaw attacks at every instance. Due to this, assuming your opponent is T4, the MANz will do more wounds consistently from 10 to 0 members left. Nobz may do slightly better against opponents with bad armor (6+ or worse) and WS4, due to the Waagh banner, but that is irrelevant if the opponent is WS3 or if they have 5+ or better armor.

To be fair 'normal' wounds are the best case for MANz. Here's the best case for Nobz, assuming you don't have Grotsnik in the army. Dealing with nothing but Plasma/Power weapon attacks:

At this point, Nobz pull ahead against even 4+ armor after only 15 wounds, and last about 50% longer. Crappy for both units, though more crappy for MANz. Bring Boyz. For half the cost, a 30 Boyz squad will last just as long as the fully kitted out Nobz.

Here's a more realistic mix for melee. We'll assume every 5th wound is from a non-S8 rend or power weapon. Something like an MEq or Eldar squad with a power weapon equipped character in it should generate this.

Against this mix, both units expire pretty much exactly at the same time. The wound rate is closer, but MANz will still outwound at very level, unless the opponent is both armor 6+ or - and WS4.

Here's a an anti-troop shooting oriented mix. A mixtures of Bolters and Heavy Bolters + Autocannon hits. Nothing S8, so FNP is active, but 2 out of every 5 shots will be AP4, thus ignoring the Nobz 'eavy Armor. This is also what the "normal" wound table looks like if you don't take 'eavy armor in addition to cybork.

The Nob squad dies somewhere around 45 bolter plus 30 heavy bolter/autocannon wounds inflicted. The MANz squad survives to 120 combined wounds, more than half again as many. And as with the all regular hit attacks, they do more damage with their klaws against anything but WS4 and 6+ or No armor opponents at every level.

Finally, let's add in some S8 love. This is the melee mix again, but instead of just power weapons, we're dealing with an embedded Powerfist/Klaw, so any failed saves are causing ID. This is also approximately what we see if something like multiple Tac Squad (bolters + melta/MM) were shooting at the squads. In all cases, we'll assume that if possible on the Nobz squad, we'll use wound allocation to take the S8 on models already wounded, so we don't lose 2 wounds instead of just 1.

Being able to stack the S8 wounds back onto wounded models is a pretty big advantage, though the MANz do keep up in return wounds until roughly the 20+5 point, at which point they take a double up on both ID and running out of wound allocation groups.

Conclusion?

MANz are vastly more survivable against anything without a power weapon. If you don't have Mad Doc Grotsnik in the army to give MANz access to cybork, Nobz with cybork + 'eavy armor are moderately more resilient to any units which generate more than approximately 1 wound in every 5 as being AP2 or power/rending. However, even then, MANz will frequently do more damage before they die, simply due to the fact that all their attacks are S8/S9 powerklaw. The MANz are slower on the ground (averaging about 4.5 inches per phase, versus the nobz 6 in clear going), but if you're in any sort of transport for the first turn or two, you probably don't care so much. MANz are also cheaper, even to get maximum possible allocation.

Note that most MEq armies cannot easily get above 1:5 for armor-ignoring weapons (1 or 2 shooting and 1 melee weapon per 10 man squad), nor can Eldar (though the squad that do are usually 1:1 like Banshees and Dragons) or Orks (1:1 for MANz, Burnas, and maybe Nobz, but usually between 1:10 and 1:30 for Boyz and most shooting units). Demons can, if they go Khorne or Slaanesh heavy. IG can, if they load up on Meltas, Vendettas, or artillery/tanks and go light on bubblewrap squads.

Generally, I'd be more likely to take Grotsnik and give my MANz Cybork than to field Nobz squads. If I did field Nobz, it would only be if I were going a full 10 strong in a Battlewagon, and probably only if I knew I were up against an army where powerklaws were not necessary (horde Nids, horde IG, Orks), or if I knew the scenario would severely punish MANz for being Slow and Purposeful.

Also as a note, rather than Dash's config, if you want to get the absolute maximum out of your Nob squad, here's my suggested config:

1. PK + Waagh Banner.
2. Painboy.
3. PK + Bosspole.
4. PK
5. Big Choppa + Kombi Skorcha
6. Big Choppa + Kombi Rokkit
7. Big Choppa
8. Bosspole
9. Kombi Skorcha.
10. Normal Nob.

By stacking your Waagh Banner and one of the Bosspoles on the PKs, you are less likely to lose those critical pieces of wargear early, since you'll avoid allocating hits to the PKs until the last possible moment anyhow. You give up a net of 1 S4/S5 attack versus Dash's config, but not having to choose between losing a Waagh Banner or Bosspole and a PK is worth it, in my book. Allocate the wounds from the bottom of the list up, and you should have your most important models live the longest.

I'm a fan of weirdboy + tankbustas. The only "bad" results are 'eadbang and extra attack (and even that's not horrible, since you're potentially forced to assault due to Glory Hogs anyhow).

I also like the following:

30 'ard Boyz (Shootas, 3 Rokkits, Nob with PK) + Zogwort + Grotsnik.

Grotsnik would normally cause this unit to get pulled all over the board. Zogwart can aim for 'ere We Go in order to put them back into the fray. Since you're playing Shootas and Rokkits, instead of Slugga/Choppa, even if you deep strike, you can still shooot.

Defensively, you've got 38 wounds at T4 or better, with 4+ save and FNP for a 3/4ths chance to ignore most wounds. That's a right pain to get rid of without large AP4 or better templates.

Offensively, you've got 2 PKs and a bunch of 2+ poisoned attacks which could be power weapons, on top of the other 29 'ard boyz and their attacks. The unit also can benefit from the +1A quite nicely. And if you roll a shooting attack, 3 Rokkits means that you have at least a semi-decent option for shooting at vehicles, and shooting at infantry is great.

It's expensive, but fun, and pretty much everyone I've played it against has admitted to not wanting to play against it again.

The downside is that beyond the expense, it tends to cripple the rest of your army. No Bosses to make your Nobs or Meganobz scoring. No Meks for KFF or SAGs. And lots of points, so you're limited on how many other toys you can take.

For those interested in the math, MANz are individually always more survivable than Nobz, unless Cybork is involved.

Losing access to FNP is not inherently bad, as 2+ armor is always a better option, under every possible S/AP combo. 4+/FNP is at most 75% of wounds saved. 2+ is at best 83% of wounds saved. Anything which negates a 2+ save also negates FNP. FNP is also negated by high S, which 2+ is not (for things like Manticores which are S10 AP4, Deffrollas which are S10 but do not have any sort of AP/Power, and so on).

FNP may be no real loss, but losing access to cybork (unless you shell out a slot and points for Mad Doc Grotsnik) means that Nobz are 1/3rd more resilient to anything which ignores armor. 5++ isn't a lot, but it's better than nothing if you're stuck facing armies that bring ridiculous numbers of AP1/2 shooting, rending, power weapon or power fist type attacks, like a meltaspam IG, Khornate Demons, or a Genestealer 'nids.

The wound allocation shenanigans are a bit of mixed blessing. You can get 3 groups out of MANz, versus 10 out of regular Nobz. That means in a maximum sized squad that wounds number 4, 5, 6, and 10 potentially reduce your attacks less for Nobz than MegaNobz. But by comparison, wounds 11, 15, 16 and 17 affect MANz attacks less than Nobz. Nobz will stay stronger to start, but will lose their strength faster at the end.

To me, the real places where Nobz have it over MANz are the ability to take Bosspoles, Waagh Banners, and having access to Cybork. The lack of Slow and Purposeful on Nobz is also a bit of a boost, though practically, if you can get even one turn of usage out of a trukk or battlewagon, you should be close enough that the difference is fairly minimal.

Bosspoles can be mitigated by putting an IC with the MANz unit. Not ideal if you're trying to do DeffWing, but if you're only going to throw 1 or 2 units out there, it's doable. That also usually means Ld8 or 9 base, which is a big help in and of itself, since neither unit is going to keep its Mob Rule for very long.

Waagh Banners can't really be replaced. WS5 is pretty useful against a wide variety of opponents, especially at only 15 points for the whole squad.

In return, MANz have by far the cheapest access to PK attacks in the codex. A Nob with a PK is at least 45 points, and if you add a shoota and either 'eavy armor or cybork to get close to the survivability, they're at least 55, and more if you amortize the Painboyz' cost across the unit. A Nob in a boyz unit with standard fittings (PK, BP, 'eavy Armor) is 51 points.

Personally, I run MANz in 3 ways.

#1 is the MANz Missile. 3 unique MANz in a Trukk with a Ram, Boarding Plank, and RPJ. 180 points. This is a significant threat to any sort of support unit, and a serious tide shifter to throw in with another trukk boy unit in order to win assaults against any sort of larger threat. It's also pretty excellent for hunting vehicles (and a decent way to deal with Dreads) and MCs (though not anything that's S8 or better or which has more than 3 or 4 attacks). Adding a 4th basic MANz makes lets the unit take on some larger squads or meaner MCs without issues. As a slight variant, run with all Kombi-skorchas. You lose allocation, but you can now fairly reliably take on even huge squads of Boyz, 'gaunt broods, and IG blob squads.

#2 is a mid sized troop unit of MANz with a MegaBoss. 4-5 MANz + the Boss in a trukk (~300 total), or 5-6 plus a Boss in a Battlewagon (~400 total). Scoring, survivable, and a lot of high strength attacks. A unit like this can reasonably expect to take on most any other unit in the game (with a few exceptions, like TH/SS Termis and a few MCs like the Swarmlord or a Bloodthirster) and remain scoring.

#3 is the bomb. 8-9 MANz and an IC or 2 in a battlewagon. I've run it with Grotsnik, so that the whole unit can have FNP and Cybork too. Cram it down your opponent's throat and watch them choke on it. Upto 50 PK attacks wrecks pretty much anything, and 20 wounds at 2+ save and possibly with Cybork and FNP means that you'll probably win 2 or 3 combats without being reduced to ineffectiveness. Hugely expensive, but also equally effective. About the only time this doesn't work well is if your opponent can reliably put AP2 or better templates on you. Then you lose a lot of points very fast.

I tend to use at least one or two units of MANz in almost every list. If I don't have other specific HQ plans (like dual Meks, or Grotsnik+ Zogwort), I almost always take at least one of the mid-sized units with a MegaBoss. If I can't take them as troops, I usually take 1 or 2 missile-trukk style units.

I prefer Grotzookas on mine. S6 is adequate for helping to crack open light transports, if there's no convenient large masses of infantry to shoot at.

As for the argument that Orks don't need anti-infantry, my thought is that if you soften up squads with barrages of S6 templates, you can assault with comparatively fewer losses. A mob of 12 in a trukk is going to take enough casualties assaulting any decent unit of 10 MEqs that even if they ultimately win, they're going to be mostly useless afterwards. The same mob, assaulting a unit reduced to 5 or 6 by grotzooka fire, can now reasonably expect to be functional afterwards.

I put Rokkits on Buggies. 3x3 Buggies with TL-Rokkits have around the same number of rokkit hits, and cost less than the Kanz would, as well as being more mobile in order to get to arcs suitable for side armor shots.

In fact, together that's a pretty fearsome combo. 18 AV10/11 hulls for just a hair over 700 points. The buggies can crack open transports and harass MCs and walkers, while the Kanz pour fire onto the infantry that falls out and then assault them if there's anything left.

I'll agree with everyone. It's all about the right technique for the right job, and the correct application of that technique.

You can get almost any effect with almost any technique, but it's about how much time and effort you want to spend. Tom Schadle (Commander Y, many-time Golden Demon winner) once did a series of Ultramarine models with nothing but dry brushing where the blending of color effect easily was as good as you would get with layering or glazing. But he used makeup brushes and many many passes of drybrushing with multiple different colors to do it. He probably could have gotten the same effect faster with layering.

By the same token, you could paint on all the mud splatters and paint chipping on a fully weathered model layer by layer by layer by layer by layer.... but you'd probably go insane or die of old age before get the effect you could from some fairly simple sponging or drybrushing.

I've been painting miniatures on and off for 20 years. I've gone through all sorts of phases where some technique was "the best" and I'd use it for everything.

These days, I tend to focus more on 'fast' techniques. Things which get my miniatures looking 'good enough' without too much effort. That means I tend to use GW washes as a first pass and then use glazing layers if a particularly smooth transition is necessary. Metals tend to get drybrushed after a wash, because that produces good enough results in relatively few steps. Somethings just get a few layers with no washing, like draped cloth. Any weathering (rust, mud, paint chipping) is almost certainly drybrushed or stippled on.

For those of you bemoaning the loss of FNP, I would like to point out that a 4+/FNP has a 75% chance to ignore a wound that is not AP4 or better or S8 or better, and a 50% chance to ignore any AP3 wounds that are not also S8 or better, and no chance to save any wound that's AP2 or better.

By comparison a 2+ save is 83% chance to ignore any wound that is not AP2, regardless of strength.

There are no circ*mstances or weapons under which the Mega-armor's 2+ save is not strictly better than 'eavy Armor's 4+ backed by the Painboyz Feel No Pain. And the 2+ armor is not lost if you lose the Painboy due to effects like Mind War, Telion, Zogwort's curse, or simple bad luck on torrent of fire.

There are relatively few things in the game that Nobz are more initially durable than MegaNobz to. Mostly anything that's AP2 or AP1 and under strength 8, including basic power weapons. And only because you can spread the wounds around on a complex unit, which means while you lose fewer models for the first few wounds, you lose more models to the following wounds, once you've saturated your 2 wound complex unit.

That said, the options that Nobz have are a pretty significant advantage. MegaNobz pretty much need an HQ unit to babysit them, if you intend for them to be a deathstar unit, and not a throwaway glass hammer unit. The lack of bosspoles and Waagh banners are definitely noticable.

To answer the OP's question, I love my MANz. I will take MANz over regular Nobz almost every time, with two exceptions. If you're going to go for a really big unit (at least 8 upto full 10 strong), Nobz advantages start to outweigh their higher cost and lower overall durability. The second is if my list does not have a lot of vehicles. MANz *need* transports, and if theirs is one of the only vehicles on the table, they'll be walking far too soon. In that case, Nobz on bikes (even more expensive, but now slightly more durable against many types of damage) are useful.

I run them in one of two ways.

First is the 'MANZ Missile' (or torpedo or rocket, depending on who is talking). 3 or 4 MANz in a fairly stripped down Trukk. The unit will cost you less than 200 points, and can reasonably wreck almost any sort of support or backfield unit, and does a decent job against non-dedicated assault units (tac squads, most Eldar aspects, IG platoons, etc). Point and click. First turn you flat-out the trukk in hopes that you get close enough to assault before your trukk is brutally destroyed from under you. Unless they dedicate a fair bit of AP2 fire, you can probably get at least 1 or 2 into combat, and if they do dedicate it, that means the rest of your army is not being targeted. This takes advantage of the fact that most AP1 and AP2 weaponry is also the high strength anti-tank weaponry.

The other way to run them, is to stick a Warboss in with them in a unit that's at least 5 strong, call them troops, and give them a battlewagon (with at least a deffrolla and armor plates). You've now got a very sturdy unit which can steamroller most any unit the game (with a few exceptions, like other Terminators and some MCs) and still be scoring. This works even better if you also have Mad Doc Grotsnik in the army, as you can give them 5++ saves too. The MANz bomb is a bit more of a second wave unit. Let your faster units tie things up and then roll up and just decimate them with 20-40 powerklaw attacks. This is especially good if you can charge multiple tied up units at once.

Overall, as I said, never ever take MANz without a transport. SnP makes them legitimately too slow to get into combat during a game that may only go 5 turns, unless you can get at least one or two turns in a vehicle that guarantees they can move 12 or more inches.

Dashofpepper wrote:I just searched this out because it is still relevant and unanswered and it came up in a discussion over in tactics just now.

1. An IC does not benefit from special rules conferred by a unit unless otherwise specified.

2. Ambush is not being conferred by a unit to the IC; the previous rule is irrelevant. Instead, it is being conferred to the unit by a special character.

3. When the IC joins the unit he becomes part of the unit. He doesn't gain the unit's ability to infiltrate, but Snikrot does confer to him the special rule "Ambush" because he's part of the unit.

To go one further, by GW's standards of wording, the ability is not even conferred to the unit (Harker, in the IG codex, for instance actually confers Infiltrate and Stealth via the Catachan Devils rule, Snikrot does not use this wording).

The rest of the unit is dragged along by mere virtue of having the special character in it. No confering to the Kommandos, or any ICs. They simply arrive with Snikrot due to being in his unit, according to the Ambush rule.

Further, you don't even have to have outflanked/infiltrated the unit to use the Ambush rule. You simply go into regular reserves. This avoids the problem of not being able to attach an IC to the unit because the IC doesn't have the same Infiltrate/Outflank ability.

It may be unintended, but RAW, it's certainly allowed.

I won't even argue that it's actually all that much or broken. Whoo, I can infiltrate even 2 Ork HQ ICs from any board edge. Go power klaws. Compare that to a Marine codex where I can drop pod the same characters (or 4 of them, in a SW list) to anywhere on the board, an IG codex where I can outflank an entire platoon of tanks and infantry (or even ICBM carriers) by taking one or two special characters, or the 'nid codex where I can deep strike 6+ MCs and several HQs as part of the standard cost of those slots.

A unit that is embarked on a transport follows all the rules for deployment of that unit. A unit of IG veterans in a Chimera come on when the Chimera does, not when the unit does. Tactical Marines do not have deep strike, but when they are placed in a Drop Pod, the Drop does have deep strike.

No one is going to argue that your tac squads cannot use a Drop Pod because they do not have the Deep Strike rules themselves. Why would you argue that a squad in reserve embarked on a transport with the ability to outflank would not be able to out flank?

For plaguebearers, I used Ogre Kingdoms Bulls.

Assembled them with the ironfist and swords (no clubs/hammers), and then ground two sockets in the face using a ball cutter bit in a dremel. I grabbed some eyeballs and horns leftover from a Tide of Spawn and glued them into the sockets, then did a little bit of greenstuff around it to smooth the socket into the head.

They're nicely beefy, as befits a model with T5 and FNP. The only downside is that while they fit on a 25mm base, it looks like they're tiptoeing. I ended up getting some 30mm bases from Impact minis to give 'em a little more room, and they look much better and are more stable on the table.

My entire Daemon army is modeled with a Khorne theme (even if the unit selections are not).

I did my Fiends by taking the new Chaos Hound plastics from the WoC line with Spawn bits. One tentacle on each shoulder and the bulkier spawn tails.

They could also, in a pinch, double up as Khorne Fleshhounds.

If you wanted something more slaaneshi you could probably do the same thing with the cold ones.

I did mine using epoxy putty. I've tried a few different sorts, including traditional green stuff, plumbers putty, and Apoxie Sculpt. Apoxie did the best job.

Basically I just smeared on a thin layer, waited about 15 minutes for the putty to set up a little bit, then pressed in various circular objects on hand (straws, paint brush caps, the bottom of other bases, spoons, plastic bottle caps, etc). After that, I used a small bit of plasticard to press in a few lines between a few of the various circle shapes to connect them together into a coherent design.

After the design is done, I set it aside until the putty has completely hardened. Then I go back with a hobby knife and trim around the edges to make everything neat, and then sand down the top with some 180 grit sand paper to get it nice and flat.

Takes about 5 minutes total, per base. I'm super lazy myself, so once I'd done a dozen or so, I made a mold of them and now I can can churn out enough for a whole squad in about 20 minutes, including waiting for the resin to set.

As far as painting goes, I generally basecoat with khaki, hit it with a heavy Devlan Mud wash, then reapply khaki to the raised areas and side of the base and then highlight along the depressions with bone to make them really stand out.

-DaR

Ghidorah wrote:Grrr... I suppose I should actually READ my codex then, huh? Truth be told, in 10 years playing Eldar, I have not ONCE used Wraithguard. I only have 3 of the models...

I don't use 'em, I don't read their rules. I really should change that, huh?

Wraithguard blocks of 10 with a conceal spirit seer are simply the best standalone troop choice Eldar have right now, in my opinion. They're the only troop choice which can reasonably expect to march across the field and still have enough models left to take and hold an objective. T6 with a Sv3+ makes them capable of absorbing mass amounts of shooting without flinching. Doubly so if you keep a farseer nearby to fortune them (at which point it takes an average of 81 BS4 bolter shots to generate a single casualty on the unit). That leaves opponents with several equally unpalatable choices. Ignore them and let them shoot the wraithcannons; try to shoot them away and thus leave the rest of the Eldar army untouched; or attempt to engage them in melee. The last is the only thing that really works to any degree, which is why most Eldarzilla lists run Wraithlords with swords, units of counter-charge harlequins, and/or seer councils put an end to any combat that is tying up the wraithguard unit.

By comparison, the only other Eldar troop choices with significant survivability requires they be mounted in a wave serpent. Untransported Guardians or Dire Avengers tend to get shot to pieces before they can make too much impact. Rangers and Pathfinders are quite survivable against basic shooting, but a single model with a flamer (damnable drop pod dreads, ambushing Ork Kommandos, outflanking Landspeeders or Sentinels, etc) or fast/outflanking assault troops will destroy them in a single turn.

-DaR

Green Blow Fly wrote:I disagree as Storm Guardians are very fluffy for Iyanden and can ride in a serpent.

G

Fluffy for Iyanden, yes.

Good fit for a competitive Eldarzilla list? I'd rather have harlequins, warlocks, or even Striking Scorpions.

Warlocks and Harlequins can kill things stormguardians can't even touch. Scorpions can infilitrate/outflank, which in the 5th edition metagame and tourney scene is pretty important.

Storm Guardians either need a serpent, which completely offsets their cheap point value, or they become the only thing on the table worth shooting basic troop weapons at, which means they die horribly while all the heavy weapons shoot at your MCs and wraith guard. The only advantage is that they're a troops choice, which means they actually can sit on an objective.

-DaR

12►Pg#